Talk:SeOCC

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Sorry for adding "F***ian" language. :( ~User:Syskeyia


Deletion requested

Delete

  1. Delete. Unless someone's added content to SeOCC's page that isn't SeOCC himself, the page is entirely, as far as I can tell, his own intellectual property, and should be removed if he so requests it. If someone wants a SeOCC page they can provide an outside perspective of their own. --Galdago
  2. Delete everyone should have final say in whether their nation has a page here. i don't want any part of this project and i should not be forced to de facto participate by having a page about my nation maintained here. whether you find it significant or informant is immaterial if the player behind the nation doesn't want it here. Pudding 19:05, 11 Nov 2004 (GMT)
  3. Delete. SeOCC's right to have his work featured here or not should be respected. He has expressed his wish not to have anything to do with this project, he doesn't really have much to do with the vast majority of nationstates anyway, and he shouldn't have to participate if he doesn't want to. Xikuang
  4. Delete. Intellectual property of this page belongs to SeOCC, as he wrote it entirely. And so, it should be deleted if he wants it so. It's a pity, surely, as it is a very informative page. But its SeOCC's right as its writer to have it removed if he wants. Anyone can give an outsider perspective if SeOCC's inclusion is 'needed' in this wiki. Hell Bovines
  5. Delete. Allow me to ammend by vote by saying that I do think we need a page about SeOCC - obviously, the pages of many other people link to it - but we should not force SeOCC's player to keep his work here against his will. I think we should remove the current content and replace it with a generic info box page with no more information that anyone who has seen SeOCC's NS page would know. That said, let me remind Pudding that you catch way more flies with honey than with vinegar. Iansisle 02:57, 12 Nov 2004 (GMT)
  6. Delete. I've not been active for a long time here, but I honestly can understand why an author might want his material removed. SeOCC had pointed out elsewhere that he is concerned that people would be attempting to change his entry, and frankly I share that concern. That said, Iansisle's request sounds good. Having a placeholder stub in place meets the needs for other pieces of info, but also shows that the NSWiki project will maintain some standards to respect the rights of the "creators" of the various countries. (I don't know how to time stamp this.) Mikitivity
  7. Redirect to Seocc, as per my comment. --Goobergunch|? 18:24, 12 Nov 2004 (GMT)

Keep

Keep. This article does not fit the Speedy Deletion criteria and SeOCC is definitely a notable nation. --Goobergunch|? 18:10, 6 Nov 2004 (GMT)
  1. Keep. I see no reason why this article should be deleted. Besides, it gives a lot of background to SeOCC that I didn't know about. Personally, I think it is very interesting and the only thing I'd change would be to give SeOCC a flag. :) ~Syskeyia
  2. Keep. I thought intellectual property is TEH EVUL!? Well, apparently only until it is one's own... Rezo 14:34, 12 Nov 2004 (GMT)

Neutral / No opinion

  1. This deletion request was not handled properly, but the request deserves to be discussed. I have no opinion on the value of this page. → Fris Θtalk 15:36, 4 Nov 2004 (GMT)
  2. I agree entirely with Iansisle (above), though technically I think (?) that means not voting for deletion. The History section should be scrapped if Pudding wants, as a matter of courtesy, but I think a page should be kept here containing just the basic NS info. If the only option is between keeping it entirely and deleting, I'd vote for delete. However I might as well take this opportunity to urge Pudding to withdraw his deletion request as I think it's an interesting and very well thought out piece of work. Hippietania 11:19, 12 Nov 2004 (GMT)

Comments

  1. I don't believe this meets the standard for speedy deletion, yet obviously the page originator wants it deleted, thus this poll. → Fris Θtalk 15:36, 4 Nov 2004 (GMT)
  2. what the fuck is the hold up? i want this deleted, so respect my wishes and delete it. now.
  3. Assuming this last rude comment is from User:Pudding, let me point out that you lost "ownership" of this page the second you clicked 'Save page'. This is a historic record of NationStates, not a personal website. No single user controls any given page, rather consensus is the rule. Right now consensus is leaning towards Keep. Your "demands" are not helping your case. → Fris Θtalk 17:32, 11 Nov 2004 (GMT)
  4. Let me point out that the material is his own. Unless you wish to provide an outsider's perspective on SeOCC and post the page yourself, he should be able to remove the content if it's his desire. He put it there in the first place. --Galdago
  5. Comment on Iansisle's comments: there is no point in having a cut-and-paste page for SeOCC or any nation. As Goober stated, SeOCC is a noteable nation, and any page created would have material that SeOCC probably wouldn't like. I'm not interested in going through this kind of a user-vandalism session with Pudding and friends every time somebody posts something remotely non-NPOV on a third-party SeOCC page. Like it or not, this is a test case re: ownership of content. Using Wikipedia standards, this is vandalism. Since NSwiki has a different purpose, we may have to redefine what counts as vandalism on nation pages. Ownership is a tricky question in a shared roleplay environment, and I'm not in as big a hurry to close this out based on emotional appeals. Let's get some more opinions before we make a hasty, precedent-setting decision. → Fris Θtalk 03:24, 12 Nov 2004 (GMT)
  6. Fris: You've said it yourself - this is a case about ownership of content. There is no shared roleplay in SeOCC's current page, just a history (worked out with, I might add, those four people besides myself who have posted to delete this) written by him. That is clearly SeOCC's property, and only SeOCC's property. Further, if you are worried about vandalism, just lock down the generic page and let people type their versions of interactions with SeOCC on their own pages. I should further note that I do not agree with SeOCC's decision to remove his page. However, I do know that if at some point, for God knows what reason, I should want to take down some of the history of Iansisle - which I wrote by myself and is clearly the intellectual property of no one except myself - I would darn well want to be able to. SeOCC deciding to keep his work available would be the best solution, but not one that appears likely. Lastly, I have no idea why you are insinuating that I am making an emotional appeal. At no point in my comments did I mention that this is something that should be undertaken hastily or without proper debate; I merely lodged my vote and stated my reasons for doing so, along with a possible compromise solution. I would appreciate it greatly if, in the future, you refrained from putting words in my mouth. Thank you. Iansisle 03:52, 12 Nov 2004 (GMT)
  7. Comment to Frisbeeteria's "I'm not interested in going through this kind of a user-vandalism session with Pudding and friends every time somebody posts something remotely non-NPOV on a third-party SeOCC page.", this is exactly why I've not been very interested in the project. I do consider SeOCC a friend, but I've also noticed that other groups of friends tend to side together. I'd hate to see countries own entries turned into a tool to fight back at countries, and that is why I think giving a country the right to take back their contribution will discourage nations from doing this. The point of NationStates is as somebody told me "recreation". This isn't supposed to be a true Wiki where we are all trying to record something that happened outside of our shared cyber environment, and if players feel spread too thin by having one group of friends worried about some other group of friends locking them out of their own country and giving their experience a bad spin, I think the project is biased. Mikitivity
  8. Iansisle, apologies. I started off responding to you, and ended up with a few generalizations based around battling edits and insults this afternoon. I didn't mean to imply that yours was the emotional appeal. → Fris Θtalk 04:14, 12 Nov 2004 (GMT)
  9. Also, since I was the one who posted this deletion discussion, I don't feel like I can fairly close it out, even though the weight of opinion has shifted radically in the other direction during the course of the day. As Goober said, this doesn't meet the qualifications for Speedy Deletion, so I have to fall back on the other deletion criteria. I'm trying to understand and follow the rules and concepts of the wiki, and to be quite honest I'm a better editor than arbitrator. Wikipedia has extensive discussions before action is taken, and that's more Goobergunch's area than mine. I don't know SeOCC, nor am I aware of his roleplay interaction, nor do I know anything about the accuracy of the comments made here. I'm just trying to adhere to the concept of consensus on NSwiki. → Fris Θtalk 04:22, 12 Nov 2004 (GMT)
  10. As this is a test case, here - for what they're worth - are my thoughts. I think the NS world has a right to a brief NPOV description of SeOCC, with the kind of straightforward factual information available publicly: location, membership of organisations, and the kind of stuff you can get from the NS page - flag, motto, etc. But I also think that the player behind a country has a right to veto any further information. That's why personally I favour the reduction of this page to a minimum. But if for some reason that's not possible, I think the player's wishes should be paramount. User:Hippietania
  11. Okay, I've just created Seocc. After reviewing the page history of SeOCC, I've determined that all of the material is directly attributable to User:Pudding and that he therefore retains GFDL rights over it. Therefore, he has the right to request that it be deleted. However, given the notability of his nation, the stub page Seocc has been created to deal with the nation in question. As with most pages, anybody is free to edit that page. I've also added the following to the general disclaimer: This is especially important given that NSwiki contains articles describing the role-play histories and attributes of many nations that are the creations of various players in the game. The histories and attributes (beyond those created solely by the NationStates game engine) of these nations are the intellectual property of these players of the game, and their use in this wiki does not waive these intellectual property rights. --Goobergunch|? 18:22, 12 Nov 2004 (GMT)
  12. Per consensus, SeOCC has been unprotected and is now a redirect to the generic nation-page Seocc. If there is any further discussion of this action, it should probably be placed here rather than on Talk:Seocc. Please do not blank this discussion, as we may wish to refer to it as a precedent. → Fris Θtalk 23:01, 12 Nov 2004 (GMT)