This talk Page has been moved from the Pure Evil Talk Page to the World Dollar Talk Page when it was decided that this issue warranted a separate entry. -- |Knoot|KNOOtalk 21:37, 20 Oct 2004 (GMT)
This is defintely not NPOV. Phrases like "hatched a plot" and "used toilet paper" are opinions of the author, not facts. This should either be labelled as an opinion piece, or revised. It's possible that the arguments over what is and is not economically possible make a NPOV article impossible, however.
This would be my attempt at a NPOV revision:
Pure Evil chaired the World Bank, an attempt to find a common global trading currency. The "World Dollar" was initially pegged at US$2 and printed by banks in Pure Evil. When SeOCC obtained a large quantity of World Dollars, members of the World Business Organization feared an attempt to destabilize their economies, citing intelligence obtained by Der Angst. Tensions in the cold war between the WBO and the Coalition of Anti-Capitalist Economies escalated.
Led by Menelmacar, the WBO jointly declared that the World Dollar would not be accepted as valid currency in WBO markets under any circumstances and made the Menelmacari credit their common currency for international trade. In these economies the World Dollar is considered to have no value. However, it may be accepted for trade in other countries or on the black market.
I restored the bit SUGGESTING what the intelligence actually was (since the WBO initially cooperated with the world dollar, and there was some sort of reason why they did things.)
Also, I removed the 'Black Market' suggestion. I mean, seriously. Do you think the World Dollar is going to be accepted in Menelmacar? It is banned by the government, and only used in nations that WBO + affiliated nations do not trade with World Dollar nations anyway due to IFTA restrictions (and before that, political restrictions). --Knoot 23:52, 17 Oct 2004 (GMT)
This article shouldn't exist period, given the massive amount of godmodery that went on. There's no reason to document something that ended in ooc arguments and IGNORES for most actions. A neutral article is impossible, as noted above, and more importantly, DA got that 'intelligence' through ooc spying, which is an incredibly dishonest and god mode practice since, while all that information was being used ic, no one ever gave the CACE an opportunity to discover that spying etc etc. Thus, the whole thing should be deleted and be done with it. --Pudding
Hope this isn't too bold, but i've changed the NPOV tag to a delete tag and moved it to the World Dollar section, as there's no dispute with the brief section on Pure Evil itself. The current article is as neutral as i can imagine making it, but i still have the same initial misgivings as to whether a NPOV is actually possible. As the World Dollar is not relevant to anyone's current RP, i think it's best to can it entirely. TB 23:54, 18 Oct 2004 (GMT)
- That's not a bad idea, but it's not really a proper use of standard deletion procedure. Instead, we should probably address it in a manner similar to deletion as follows. --Goobergunch|? 00:05, 19 Oct 2004 (GMT)
World Dollar Inclusion Vote (2/1/1)
Should the Pure Evil article include the section on the World Dollar? Please remember to sign your vote with 4 tildes (~~~~) and update the vote tally.
- Delete. Pudding 05:45, 19 Oct 2004 (GMT)
- Delete Kerla
- I don't see the harm in it, honestly. Just because there's a disagreement over how the RP ended doesn't mean the content is by definition invalid. There are going to be disagreements here, and some of them aren't going to be resolved, regardless. Those of us who were previously unaware of the conflict can learn by example, both good and bad. I can't get worked up over this, so call me neutral, but I'm leaning towards "let it stay". → Frisbeeteria Θtalk 00:26, 19 Oct 2004 (GMT)
That does make more sense, yeah. Especially as i've buggered up the attempt to use the deletion page. TB
<DA got that 'intelligence' through ooc spying, which is an incredibly dishonest and god mode practice since, while all that information was being used ic, no one ever gave the CACE an opportunity to discover that spying etc etc.>
Bwa. Ha. Ha. You mean your (as well as Cirdanistans) attempts to do... Well, exactly the same, never happened? *Gets the giggles, a lot* Not to mention that I did give you the opportunity to discover it. Of course, you sort of thought I was attempting an entire civil war with all the horrific consequences just to force you guys into a war... Well, let me put it like this: If you're paranoid: Not my problem.
Of course, apart from blatant hypocrisy, there is this other thing... Maybe you're not all that interested as being seen as a close supporter of Pure Evil? Or are you disturbed by your own hypocrisy, as you didn't ask for ooc permission for your OMG plot (While of course demanding that other people ask for this kind of permission when plotting against you guys)?
Whatever it is: Deal. Rezo 07:22, 19 Oct 2004 (GMT)
I'll have to second Rezo on this one. Both Tanah Burung and me have made an effort to keep this thing NPOV and, face it, its not an OMG Biased description of events and, in addition, these events HAPPENED. These happenings are still part of the IC history of many other nations. The World Dollar (to my knowledge) is still being used in SeOCC.
I vote for 'keep' while taking into account that the article is still open for editing if people feel it gives a biased version of events. --Knoot 16:51, 19 Oct 2004 (GMT)
Well, I just noticed that Pudding left the NSWiki. Do we have to continue the vote on this now? --Knoot 17:02, 19 Oct 2004 (GMT)
I'd like to hear some more opinions first. The proof is in the voting, not in the pudding. If we keep the article, we could revisit the "black market" line, which goes to the original claim of "godmod." Can a free-market government really ban trading in a currency and declare its value to be nil, without creating a black market? I can't see how. The inability to resolve this argument (then and now) is why i suggested the deletion. Long post short: let's wait. TB 23:04, 19 Oct 2004 (GMT)
To have a Black Market, you need to have demand. Where is the demand for the World Dollar? CACE/ IFTA don't trade with 'Outsider' economies to begin with (And checking their UN rankings, there is no need for outsiders to trade with them...), so, here, no demand. Pure Evil is reowned for being a warmongering nation based on close relations with Imperial Forces/ Russian Forces, all three are sorta... Considered 'No Way' partners by just about the rest of the world.
Hence, there is no need for a Black Market, and as such, it doesn't exist.
On the other hand, the CACE/ IFTA block might have a Black Market for foreign currencies, due to being incapable of trading with others, hence, (admittedly tiny, due to police state control) imports must be conducted with foreign currencies.
It is, however, questionable just how they get the money, so, such a Black Market might not exist due to a distinct lack of ressources.
Bah. This was, of course, me. Short summary: It doesn#t exist. Rezo 08:07, 20 Oct 2004 (GMT)
Well, I summarised a comperable position in my edit line. That is to say, I *know* Knootoss may have currencies used in the black market. Usually, you (TB) would be making a reasonable assumption to make. However, it is different with the World Dollar since a 'black market' in some currency (at least in a 'western' state where the STANDING currency (euro, MC)functions perfectly fine) is just foreign currency that is accepted in addition to the standard currency on a voluntary basis.
However, as Rezo pointed out there *is* no trade between Knootoss and *any* country that uses the World Dollar. Hence there is no demand for it. The same goes for the other members of the WBO. If there was trade it would be different.
Any black market would be *so* small as to be statistically insignificant. (This was Knoot 13:08, 20 Oct 2004 (GMT))
I wasn't around during the incident described and so can have no objective perspective from which to vote. However, objectivity seems fundamental in making this resource as useful for everyone as possible. There are several comments above that I find incredibly biased and ill-informed. I think that the potential to use this resource in order to find some common ground in current and future Nationstates-based RP is massive, so long as people can show their intent clearly, have a little more respect for each other and use this tool in the collaberative spirit for which is was designed.
Attempts to steam-roller less frequent users with past issues and gripes - or to use this as a vehicle to promote IC or OCC self-interest is frankly a waste of everyones time, and is completely at odds with the spirit of the enterprise.
In any case, I am grateful to those who have put much time and labour into this project and hope that the civility which this format promotes might somehow translate onto the jolt forum too :-D
Moist regards Beno
this post, (bleeding off the end of Knootoss') was mine (Watfordshire). Will I get the hang of this soon? We'll see.
- Watfordshire (and everyone else), start your post with four dashes (----) alone on the first line, and end it with four tildes (~~~~). The dashes add a line to separate your post from the one above, the tildes insert your signature automatically. → Frisbeeteria Θtalk 14:35, 20 Oct 2004 (GMT)
One factual point: the World Dollar predates the IFTA. I won't insist on including a black market line, but i'll just repeat that a free-market economy by its nature cannot dictate the value of anything and we'll have to agree to disagree. What Der Angst says about Pure Evil may be true, i have no idea. Some extra content to the Pure Evil entry rather than the World Dollar sub-entry could be useful in informing those of us who know nothing about Pure Evil. TB 15:28, 20 Oct 2004 (GMT)
While this statement about the market economy is true, the WBO ruled to ban trade with it. It was not a 'pure free market' scenario. You are free, of course, to accuse Menelmacar and the WBO of statism in order to protect their economy, but that is how it went. In addition, even back then there was no trade between WBO nations and SeOCC/Pure Evil. --Knoot
Okay, I should note that I am, in fact, the original writer of the World Dollar article.
Yes, the phrase about used toilet paper was not NPOV and it shouldn't have been used. However, the phrase "hatched a plot" described very simply what happened. On "Pudding"'s web page there was for over a year a multi-page essay describing precisely how this plot, to use the leverage of mass quantities of World Dollars to destabilize capitalist economies, would be carried out. It is, to my knowledge, no longer there, since he took it down real quick after ISN (Menelmacar's largest holonetwork) did an exposé on CACE. However, I anticipated this, and copied the article to an offsite location. In his ranting, of course, Pudding (SeOCC) wasn't going to mention this, because it was not convenient to his argument.
The essay in question can be found at http://www.geocities.com/imperialsatellitenews/cace1.html.
I've re-edited the article, with clearance from Goober. The dictionary definition of 'hatch' in this context, from the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, is:
To devise or originate, especially in secret: hatch an assassination plot.
So, there's no spin to the phrase whatsoever, as that's precisely what happened, supported by the Economic Policy Statement and Pudding's own comments. I hope that satisfactorily settles the issue.
Sirithil 20:57, 20 Oct 2004 (GMT)
For the public record, I would have preferred that the word 'hatched' not be used because it has a negative connotation. As I see it, there are linguistic alternatives and I think TB and my edits helped in making the thing more acceptable. However, if Goober and everyone else is okay with it, with the interpretation as given here in the talk page you will not hear me complain. -- |Knoot|KNOOtalk 21:47, 20 Oct 2004 (GMT)
No problem with most of Sirithil's changes, or with addition of a link to WBO discussion at the time if you wish to add that too. I agree with Knoot though, the phrase "hatched a plot" has a negative connotation. Compare: "Before the election of George Bush, the Project for a New American Century hatched a plot to invade Iraq." (This can be deomstrated with links, but if you disagree, treat it as a hypothetical.) Since the goal is presumably to end up with an article with no NPOV flag, let's try to use words that are as neutral-souding as possible. I've substituted "planned" which is shorter and certainly neutral. Change it to "secretly planned" if you like.
Webster's on plot: 1. Any scheme, stratagem, secret design, or plan, of a
complicated nature, adapted to the accomplishment of some purpose, usually a treacherous and mischievous one; a conspiracy; an intrigue; as, the Rye-house Plot.
Some would argue that's what happened, others would disagree. The NPOV option is to find a neutral formulation. I think we may be almsot there. TB 22:19, 20 Oct 2004 (GMT)
Now that Lady Siri has so thoroughly separated this article into a Pure Evil and World Dollar section, I think the whole thing ought to be Moved to World Dollar, and the single Pure Evil line should be placed on the old page, along with a link (That would move the Talk page with World Dollar, were it appears to belong). We can still dispute the NPOV of the World Dollar topic, but Pure Evil is only peripherally involved in the actual discussion now. → Frisbeeteria Θtalk 21:00, 20 Oct 2004 (GMT)
Thirded and moved --[[User:Knootoss|Knootalk]] ]] 21:27, 20 Oct 2004 (GMT) (bah, that sig needs work again.)
I think this entire issue is incredibly stupid, personally. I don't think the word "planned" is strong enough. "Planned" implies that no action was actually taken, which is not the case. Parts of the plan were in fact implemented, including the acquisition of large quantities of World Dollars in preparation. It was quick action on the part of the WBO that prevented things from moving further.
If we're going to insist on insulting readers' intelligence with a policy of political correctness, and "hatched a plot" is too strong, why not go with "set a plan in motion"? I've made the edit so you folks can see how it sounds.
Sirithil 01:35, 21 Oct 2004 (GMT)
Yeah, that sounds fine. I know it's a lot of work to get these things thrashed out. But as this article's something of a test case, it seems to me to be worth the effort.
I love how you Siri never try to be neatural. We are aleast trying to be neutral and you just ruin it. "Planned" is exactly what it should be. I think this article should be deleted. Kerla
Two months without further complaints, can we remove the NPOV tag now?
Sirithil 04:40, 30 Dec 2004 (GMT)